Edward Norton on Playing Folk Hero Pete Seeger in ‘A Complete Unknown’

“Edward Norton is Pete Seeger.” How possible was it that a lot of the moviegoing world could be pondering or saying these phrases on the finish of 2024 and starting of 2025? Or that Norton’s portrayal within the Bob Dylan biopic “A Full Unknown” would even be main youthful generations to seek out out extra about who Seeger was? Some moviegoers contemplate Seeger probably the most sympathetic character on this ensemble piece — even when he is the one with the most important vested curiosity in conserving the hero from expressing himself within the loud and brash method the viewers is hoping and ready for.

On this Q&A, Norton, who looms massive within the awards dialog this 12 months, talks about why he had reservations about tackling real-life materials that he felt may be “too sacrosanct,” and what filmmaker James Mangold mentioned to vary his mind-set. He additionally praises his main scene accomplice, Timothée Chalamet. And, in response to a “course of” question, Norton affords a spirited and eloquent protection of why some issues concerning the moviemaking course of are higher left behind closed doorways. That’s his basic philosophy about revealing an excessive amount of, however on this case it’s additionally his reply to the query: What Would Bob Dylan Do? (For our earlier Q&A with James Mangold concerning the movie, click on right here.)

Many people within the kind of Dylan aficionado world are stunned — even giving James Mangold some credit score for what he’s accomplished earlier than — that it could be attainable to make a film that felt actual about this situation and this dynamic. So what had been your emotions when this movie was delivered to you, and did you will have full religion that the interval and milieu had been one thing that may very well be captured on movie? Or did you will have any second’s hesitation about: How actual is that this film gonna be?

I don’t know if actual is the phrase I might use. However I completely had greater than a second’s hesitation. That interval and people folks, that music, it was all a really large a part of the soundtrack of my very own younger life coming to New York. “Track for Woody,” I used to play for myself; I used to suppose that’s the narrative of coming to New York, to stroll in different folks’s footsteps. And Dylan’s early data from that point in New York, I used to be very steeped in it and possibly virtually held it too valuable. So there was a burden I used to be carrying, the burden of feeling possibly that this was too sacrosanct, that you just don’t do this.

On the similar time, in fact it’s very tempting, as a result of I really like the music and I really like the folks. And I feel Timothée’s terrific. I’ve recognized him for some time, and I’ve lengthy thought… there’s not that many individuals, I feel, which might be actually genetically outfitted to attempt to play Bob Dylan. And I knew he might try this; I didn’t suppose nobody might try this.

However the factor that actually acquired me over was extra the way in which Jim was radically against the concept of a biography, and even the concept of making an attempt to choose the lock and perceive Dylan per se. He mentioned to me, “I’m within the cultural anthropology.” We all know this headline: Dylan plugged in at Newport and that was the tip of the folks scene, and it was the start of rock (commanding the main focus)… And he mentioned, “Why had been there such stakes in that?” Like, what was happening, within the stakes for that as a cultural second. And he talked about back-building from there to evaluate the stew of people that had been colliding with one another and affecting one another that created this second round this emergent protean expertise. And I actually appreciated that. I believed, that’s arduous, however should you pull it off, you’re not solely not doing a biopic; what you’re actually doing is an immersive expertise in what a sure time felt like. And that’s arduous to do. I feel that it’s arduous to desert a story and concentrate on milieu and characters and relationship and cultural context and present the way it produced a second. That is all a great distance of claiming that the extra I understood what I felt Jim was actually engaged with, the extra I acquired in it.

Now, on the again finish of it, objectively I’ll say, I’m so admiring of Jim’s creative sophistication in pulling that off. As a result of if you consider it, there’s actually solely two acts on this film. And the reality is, the second act doesn’t begin till two-thirds of the way in which by way of the film, with that actual shift to 1965. And that’s wild. It is vitally tough to interrupt away from the structural tropes and calls for of not solely biopics, however (standard) filmmaking, and to carry the eye by way of the collisions of individuals. As a result of actually all he’s doing is that this individual’s expertise is propelling him by way of encounters with folks, and people encounters with the archdruid, Pete Seeger, and a competitor or lover, Joan (Baez), and an angel (the Sylvie Russo character), and his romance with Johnny Money, and all these items. It’s actually wild to make a movie that’s not about plot in that method, and to depart folks feeling that they’ve understood one thing.

I’m fairly deep on that historical past, I’ve to say. I watched the movie and it actually introduced house to me… like, I have a tendency to think about the early ‘60s because the civil rights motion, however you neglect concerning the Cuban missile disaster. You actually neglect concerning the anxiousness of a nuclear conflict that permeates songs like “Masters of Conflict.” And my hat is off to Jim for the richness of this non-linear, non-life-structured story.

Are you able to discuss your ideas on Pete Seeger and the way he comes off on this portrayal? When you learn the Elijah Wald ebook about Newport ’65 that the film is partially primarily based on, there’s real-life nuance to that relationship in addition to all of the relationships, actually, and Mangold captured a lot of that. And naturally he is a great man, and due to this fact was by no means going to make Pete Seeger the villain. However he is antagonist to the anti-hero. And also you sympathize with each of them within the movie.

Yeah. I’ve heard Jim say, and I agree, that he was extraordinarily dedicated to the concept that there isn’t a antagonist like that. Dylan’s a protagonist, however Pete Seeger’s integrity and worth system can coexist with Dylan’s, in a bizarre method. I really like the shortage of judgment within the movie.

I do know it’s a bizarre analogy, however for me, “Do the Proper Factor” was a particularly, extraordinarily vital film in my coming of age. And it was one of many first issues that actually handled all of the juicy problem of American life. On the finish, it has this quote from Martin Luther King after which a quote from Malcolm X, they usually’re diametrically opposed, and (director Spike Lee) places this image up the place they’ve their arms round one another and he simply leaves it in your lap. And I bear in mind being so energized by that method of ending a film. I form of suppose that’s what Jim’s accomplished right here.

Edward Norton in A COMPLETE UNKNOWN
Picture Courtesy of Searchlight Photos. © 2024 Searchlight Photos All Rights Reserved.

Pete Seeger is Pete Seeger, and he’s acquired all types of admirable integrity in his lane of the kind of individual he was. And Dylan has an inventive integrity, and for some time, they had been in the identical lane, after which they weren’t in the identical lane. It’s just like the breakup of the Beatles. It’s bittersweet, however on the finish of the day, that’s life and it has to occur. And I really like the messiness, and I really like Jim permitting competing concepts to coexist.

As a result of you may really feel deeply loyal to somebody… When you take heed to Dylan at present, he reveres Pete Seeger and admires and appreciates him. However you may love and recognize and revere somebody and want to interrupt away from them. And (like Seeger) you will be pleased with somebody and nonetheless have expectations of them, that they could owe you one thing… This stuff can all coexist. And I feel lots of people who had relationships with one another on this time cherished one another, they usually had been aggressive, on the similar time. You’ll be able to love somebody and be aggressive with them too. And the messiness of all of it, I discovered that to be very grownup. Very grownup.

It’s virtually like a thwarted buddy film in a method, the place folks that you just like for various causes naturally drift aside, although it’s been arrange in a method that you just form of want they may very well be shut for the remainder of their lives, for no matter causes that introduced them collectively.

Sure. To me, it is best to all the time hope {that a} movie will be one thing that individuals can see themselves in it, whether or not they’re people musicians or not. And I feel that everyone’s been younger and making an attempt to maneuver, and it’s important to make selections about what you maintain onto and what you permit behind. And that’s true should you’re a health care provider. It’s true should you’re a part of any cohort of individuals has dynamics which might be like this. So I feel possibly the way in which that persons are connecting with it’s not simply merely due to it being concerning the folks, however as a result of it’s about youth and the propulsive form of power of youth, and brothers and sisters and oldsters and youngsters and the way in which we attempt to maintain onto one another. And I feel it’s relevant. I feel it’s relevant exterior the world of folks stars.

If we will communicate for a minute about what you probably did to arrange for this position… It looks like this complete course of went fairly shortly, so far as your involvement. It was introduced that you just had been forged in January. You shot in summer season. It was at one level projected as a summer season 2025 launch, but right here it’s popping out six months sooner than that, which suggests Mangold actually hustled. In your half, while you had been speaking about “Glass Onion,” you mentioned, possibly jokingly, that you just had been forged as a result of there was a brief guitar-playing scene in that and also you had already performed guitar earlier than. So we all know you will have some musical capability. However doing Pete Seeger’s banjo selecting is one other factor, and getting the voice proper to the extent that you just wish to get the spirit of it proper.

You recognize, I’m not making an attempt to shine it off, however I feel course of is like… There’s all the time some form of alchemy to determining the mix of all of it. And then you definately get inputs from costume and stuff, and it’s important to cobble it collectively, kind of piece by piece, and it’s important to mine the supply materials in some methods for nuggets of perception.

And the work is what it’s. I discover myself… properly, I imply, you might be writing for Selection, so I feel I’m gonna make a remark, which fits exterior your query, which is: I form of suppose that we may be moving into this period the place it’s just like the previous factor of the snake that eats its personal tail. I feel we’re getting so hung up on course of and the behind-the-scenes factor that we’re blowing the magic trick of all of it. I truly suppose we’re beginning to have this tendency to speak about how we did it earlier than we’ve even put it out. I had an expertise lately the place there was one thing I used to be kind of all in favour of seeing, and I noticed so many goddamn clips concerning the make-up course of, I used to be similar to: It’s simply cooked for me now. They’ve cooked it.

It’s like if David Blaine got here out in Vegas and mentioned, “Let me present you this factor I hold in my pocket that lets me magnetize a factor, and that is how I pull that card and that is how I bend that coin… OK, now I’m gonna stroll out and do it.” Then he’d stroll out and do it, and you’d simply go, OK —that’s not why I went to that present. I went to that present to have my thoughts blown. And while you and I noticed “Raging Bull,” it simply places you behind your seat. You simply went, “What the precise fuck? Like, is that that man?”

And Timothée did one thing I believed was actually, actually mature. As a result of they mentioned to him, “We simply wish to arrange a time-lapse factor to observe you get into Dylan within the factor.” And he mentioned, no. (First) he mentioned to me, “What do you suppose?” I mentioned, “Completely not.” They usually had been like, “However for social, for behind the scenes…!” No, completely not. I’m like, why? Why do you wish to take away from an viewers the chance to expertise the mysticism, the trick, the suspension of disbelief? It’s like, if we don’t cease fucking speaking about how a lot time we spend within the make-up chair or how we be taught the guitar, or no matter… I’m simply beginning to really feel all of us ought to simply go away folks alone. Like, go away ’em alone; let ’em watch the piece. As a result of I am an viewers member, and I would like thriller. I would like phantasm.

And I don’t need anyone to listen to Timothée discuss this (means of transformation). I simply need them to go and see him do what’s a “Raging Bull”-like efficiency. I imply, it’s that good, and it’s transformational, however it’s worthwhile to put money into it. And the studios, I do know they’re making an attempt to promote the movie, however I feel folks have began to suppose that letting folks backstage earlier than we’ve put the film out is a good suggestion. It’s a horrible thought. Like, think about when “Shut Encounters” got here out. After I noticed a style of that film, I needed to see that film so badly. And if I had seen a featurette on the fashions earlier than I noticed the film, it wouldn’t have been magical.

And possibly it’s as a result of that is what Dylan himself was virtually like a wizard about: He knew to not let folks backstage. He knew to not discuss which means. He mentioned: You determine what it means. And I don’t know what’s occurred. I don’t know if it’s the company equipment. Social media definitely doesn’t assist. However I feel we’re virtually getting so far the place we’re privileging course of over magic, and I fear about it a bit of bit. On this case I really feel very defensive, within the case of those characters, but additionally of Timmy specifically. I feel folks ought to simply go see it and get misplaced in it. You received’t prefer it extra for seeing backstage. You recognize what I imply?

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